Curse

Melody Cross · Jun 23, 2007, 04:33 PM // 16:33

The only thing that I think pets need for buffed is to have the skill recharge reduced when it dies. Charm animal can rez your pet from very far away and heal for a good amount. Lots of BM builds are used in PvE today and there are some areas of PvP where they could dominate...and one quasi-PvP area where they do.

If you took comfort animal out of the build pets would become overpowered. You could put other damage reducing skills in to make them even stronger than they are now (and Dire pets are...pretty strong).

GGs

shirosae · Jun 23, 2007, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

Well contrary to the guys playing quote wars in this thread, I happen to think that Beastmasters are pretty strong. They need to be weak in one aspect or another. Having something like NS provide 50% block and 33% speed would just be too much. Opponents need to be able to neutralise the bm somewhat by either the Bm or the pet itself. Like you say you can get this kind of functionality with the use of other skills, but that requires more skill slots so it's balanced.

See, my point is that when i run other builds, and get access to skills like Natural Stride, i don't need to keep my Bow alive. A Beastmaster does. I reckon it is that extra need that is the biggest problem with beastmastery in PvE.

Really, i do know that the alternatives exist (i do use them myself occasionally), but somehow it seems that a pure beastmaster being less effective than a partial beastmaster is somehow perversely wrong. I don't mind that Thumpers etc exist, but i think that pure beastmasters should at least be given some tweaks to take them up to a similar level.

Also, if all my damage is coming from the pet, all the same anti-melee defenses still work (with the exception of Blocking <3 Otyugh's). Blind, Snares etc. I don't think letting the Beastmaster share some defensive skills with the pet is going to upset that balance, because just blinding or snaring a Pet is already much easier and quicker than killing one with CoP or suchlike on it.

I think that the pure beastmaster is:
1) strong in offence,
2) strong in player defence (you're a ranger after all),
3) great with pet defence (Call of Protection is insane)

Pick any two.

I do love Beastmastery, and i do think it's very strong, but i think the fact that you're trying to keep two entities alive at the same time with limited space strangles it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

While I can understand the conundrum of a pure Beastmaster (I used to, and occasionally still, play pure bm) the damage options of a thumper or spear chucker can't be ignored quite simply because they exist. If you increase pet damage across the board, you end up over-powering the other 2. Having 2 damage lines is just such a major advantage over having just 1. With the new pet controls it's even possible to split your dps and utility between 2 targets. Or an opponent sticks Insidious on you. You stop attacking and let the pet handle things for a while till it get's removed or ware's off. There are just so many more options.
Incidentally I did some tests again last night. Pet's at 16 actually crit for 58 damage on regular attacks (at least my dire wolf Omachi does). Significantly high for a damage assistant. Not amazing for your sole damage.
To get over this, Anet could possibly introduce weapons for Beastmasters but that's a messy solution (and expensive in terms of time).

Yup, that's exactly my problem with the situation. The pet damage is just about fine, if you take enough skills. And the defence is there, if you concentrate on that. And if you don't try to run a purely Beastmaster build, it all works fine. When you try to run a pure beastmaster, the skillbar size gives you a headache. I think the cleanest solution is to start compacting defensive skills together, and the way that makes most sense to my thinking is to have defensive skills affect both Beastmaster and Pet.

Quote:

That's the thing you see. Thumpers and spear chuckers are just inherently stronger than pure pet Bm's. Anet could affect this by adding Beastmaster staves that increase pet abilities: 20% pet damage increase for a customised stave. Vampiric staves for a vampiric pet. 20% ap staves. Elemental staves. Inherrant dps upgrades (+15 damage per attack (or attack skill) while you use the staves). Things like that...
It could work, but again the balance is dubious at best. Pet's can be ressed forever as long as the BM has the energy. However pet's get dp in pvp. Do they lose dp when you get a morale boost? Haven't tried it extensively enough to find out, but things like this need to be checked for balance. I'm sure Anet have considered this already.

Again you can upgrade your bows all you want with skills like those, you will still deal less damage than a thumper/spear guy with a pet. Plus the Thumper/Spear guy has sustainable dual-dps without the need for supplements so he can pack utility. While the buff ranger needs to keep re-applying his buffs and has far less space (and energy) for utility. Energy is a big thing also. In addition to having dual-dps lines you also have dual energy lines when you factor in adrenaline on hammers and spears.

I agree with all of this. I think it's a shame, and an indication of the problem with Beastmastery in PvE, but true nonetheless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

Enraged is a great elite. I used to be bound to it indefinitely also. However there are other options which may not be as potent in raw damage but still offer quality. For example my bm crew did Raisu a while back using Melandru's Assualt under an Orders necro to do impressive damage to single targets and great aoe. Mixed with Brutal Strike you get some very potent offense. This is only sustainable under Feral Lunge.

It depends. I like Melandru's if i can be guaranteed of enchanted targets (and this is much easier since the pet controls were added), that works well. I used to use it on Griffons when they cast Spell Breaker. :P

Brutal Strike is great if you can get a lot of attacks on mobs under 50% HP, but i find that once a mob in general PvE is that low, it generally tends to die off very quickly (unless they're high HP bosses, Brutal works great on Abbadon), leaving me with a 10e Predator's Pounce with no secondary effect.

Like you say, it would be dangerous to start adding and messing with pet attacks. You can't have something of the quality of Enraged Lunge as a non-elite. But without Enraged Lunge, are two-three pet attacks enough to make the choice of pet damage worthwhile? If you have a load of clumped up enchanted enemies with loads of HP and armour, sure. It's so much easier just to roll a Thumper and make the problem go away.

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

This is actually an awesome idea! I really like the idea of really 'becoming one' with your pet and sharing hp, energy, conditions, hexes etc. All the buffs bar Otyugh's Cry and Call of Prot could work. (Call of Haste could but it would need a few changes). Theres no saying this combined hp need be exactly double. It could be inline with a Melandru Dervish under Vital Boon. Perhaps maxing out somewhere between 600 - 700 hp. There are exploits though. You could activate it and put your pet in idle mode so he'll have less change of being attacked.

There are more problems with it that I'd rather not get into right now, but it is definitely worth investigating. It would probably have to be elite also and have a similar cost structure to RaO. I dunno'... Great idea though!

If the skill is under Beastmastery, and you have high Beastmastery to make the skill effective, then you have slightly more than 100 skillpoints left to make yourself useful, so i don't think leaving the pet as defensive would be a valuable exploit for a pure beastmaster. I suppose again this could be exploited by people running less than maximum Beastmastery, like Thumpers etc. What if it has a short duration, and renews itself whenever a pet criticals?

I think the skill would need to scale the HP bonus based on Beastmastery skill. Also, if the skill made the Pet easier to spike at lower Beastmastery (by reducing AL or whatever), you could discourage non-pure beastmasters from using it. I feel tempted to start referring to all non pure beastmasters with Charm Animal as unpure.

Also, we get into the elite problem again. You can take the elite skill, and solve the defensive problem, but you take away from the offence. Unless this skill were to free up several slots (so every IAS pet strike was a good attack skill), it again wouldn't solve the problem.

Brutal
Melandru's
Disrupting (Scavenger's? Feral maybe?)
Call of Haste (Tiger's Fury? it'd screw up Natural Stride, i digress)
Nightmare Weapon <- lolexploit
Natural Stride (or whatever)
Bond Skill {Elite}
Flesh of my Flesh

I don't think it's doing enough in its current state. Maybe if they skill also added AL, so it was in itself the defensive skill? That way i'd be able to drop out Natural Stride (or whatever). Still, i find that i can only really cycle three pet attacks without leaving some untriggered. This is an awkward problem.

Obey The Cat · Jun 23, 2007, 11:05 PM // 23:05

/signed since ages

Bazompora · Jun 24, 2007, 12:11 AM // 00:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obey The Cat

/signed since ages

You seem to not care about skill balance or forum policy;

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

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MrFuzzles · Jun 24, 2007, 01:33 AM // 01:33

imo, the mere fact that so many are disagreeing on this might mean that a change is in order. A compromise of some sort.

Personally, I'd play around with the idea of having different charm animal skills that would alter the behaviour of your pet and came with one additional function that could be used if you already have a pet.
Something like.. an offensive version where your pet has +15% damage, -30% hp, and if you use the skill it does a generic power attack. A defensive version where your pet has +15% hp, -30% damage, and if you use the skill, you will res your pet with a 10s cast time that's easily interrupted. Just some random numbers to illustrate, you get the idea.

Like I mentioned earlier though, I definately think that simply merging charm and comfort would be way too powerful, as it would make all rangers always bring a pet, even on non-pet builds.

frojack · Jun 24, 2007, 11:17 AM // 11:17

Quote:

I agree with all of this. I think it's a shame, and an indication of the problem with Beastmastery in PvE, but true nonetheless.

It's really just another product of expertise being stupidly good (I won't use the term over-powered, religious reasons). The only non 'pure' Beast master who can use pet's better are rangers doing the jobs of other professions.
Rangers make better life stealers than Necro's. Better attack skill users than anyone else (the only reason you don't see more R/W with axes and swords is because all the really exploitable attack skills are in Strength), and the most abusive and downright infuriating of them all, they make better spirit spammers than Ritualists. If spirit spamming wasn't rather poor this would indeed be a balance issue.

Quote:

It depends. I like Melandru's if i can be guaranteed of enchanted targets (and this is much easier since the pet controls were added), that works well. I used to use it on Griffons when they cast Spell Breaker. :P

Brutal Strike is great if you can get a lot of attacks on mobs under 50% HP, but i find that once a mob in general PvE is that low, it generally tends to die off very quickly (unless they're high HP bosses, Brutal works great on Abbadon), leaving me with a 10e Predator's Pounce with no secondary effect.

Correction: I mean't Ferocious Strike not Feral Lunge. I guess you realised ^_^. Anyway yeah you’re right about Melandru's. It's quite situational, but that’s the point of having options. In a situation like Raisu, most of the opposition becomes enchanted at one point. In fact I'd wager the total damage was actually higher than if we ran an Enraged build thanks to the aoe. Certainly in pvp nearly everyone's got an enchantment on them these days. I'd really like Anet to increase the AoE on Melandru's to 'in area' or even crazily 'nearby'. Or have it strip enchantments under 50% would be very good if a little... (removed for religious reasons!). Utility is always better than damage.

Brutal Strike is just Final Thrust every 5 seconds when you think about it. No one would say Final was bad

. Though I guess Final usually comes after a DW. Say's a lot really.

Idea: Let's say we were going to buff all skills under the Beastmaster line. An interesting potential 'fix' for the situation of 'non-pure' abuse is to tie a lot of the extra power of these skills to another line (Wilderness is good, but not Expertise obviously). This isn't an entirely new mechanic; Anet's designers used it on Lion's Comfort. So:

Beastmastery change: For each point in Wilderness Survival your pet does has +1 armour penetration on all attacks. All Wilderness Survival additional functionality requires rank 10 or more in Beast Mastery.

Bestial Mauling: Pet Attack. Your animal companion attempts a Bestial Mauling that deals +5..17..20 damage. If the attack strikes a knocked-down foe, that foe is Dazed for 4..9..10 seconds. This attack also blinds target foe for 1 second for each rank in Wilderness Survival. 50% failure at rank 4 or below.

Notes: Utility is always good.

Bestial/Savage Pounce: Pet Attack. Your animal companion attempts a Bestial Pounce that deals +5..17..20 damage. If the attack strikes a foe who is casting a Spell, that foe is knocked down. With rank 8 or higher in Wilderness Survival, that spells is also disabled for an additional 5 seconds.

Notes: Good if you catch something with low recharge like Freezing Gust or Parasitic Bond.

Call of Haste: Shout. For 30 seconds, your animal companions have a 25% faster attack speed and move 25% faster. With Rank 10 or more in Wilderness Survival you also move 25% faster.

Comfort Animal: Skill. You heal your animal companion for 20..87..104 Health. If your companion is dead, it is resurrected with 10..48..58% Health. For every rank in WS you are also healed for 5 health.

Note: Self heal. Not amazingly strong but remember it recharges in 1 second. Cost keeps it in check.

Feral Lunge: Pet Attack. Your animal companion attempts a Feral Lunge that deals +5..29..35 damage. If the attack strikes a foe who is attacking, that foe suffers from Bleeding for 5..21..25 seconds. With rank 8 or more in WS that foe is also knocked down and becomes crippled for 6 seconds.

Notes: Solid anti-melee tool. Aid your kiting monks.

Melandru's Assault: Pet Attack. Your animal companion attempts a Melandru's Assault that deals +5..17..20 damage. If that attack strikes a foe with an enchantment, that foe and all adjacent foes take +5..29..35 additional damage. At rank 10 or more in WS, this attack also removes an enchantment on foes below 50% health.

Notes: The definitive murder tool (tm). This plus Brutal Strike would be very effective.

Otyugh's Cry: For 10..22..25 seconds, your animal companion gains +24 armor and cannot be blocked. For every 3 ranks in WS this skill also removes 1 condition and 1 hex every 4 ranks upon activation.

Notes: Sounds powerful for sure but it's not that strong really. Condition cleaning and removal of 1 to 2 hexes every 30 seconds isn't so hot. Just takes the edge off.

Poisonous Bite: Pet Attack. Your animal companion attempts a Poisonous Bite that poisons target foe for 5..17..20 seconds. At rank 10 or above in WS this skill also transfers 1 condition and its remaining duration to target foe.

Pounce: Pet Attack. Your animal companion's next attack is a Pounce that deals +5...17...20 damage. If the attack strikes a moving foe, that foe is knocked down. At rank 10 in WS this attack also inflicts a deep wound for 10 seconds.

Notes: Hmm... Beastmasters need a Deep Wound to really be taken seriously, but this skill will need to cost at least 10 energy.

Predatory Bond: Shout. For 5..17..20 seconds, attacks by your animal companion heal you for 1..25..31 Health. For every 3 ranks of WS you gain 1 point of health regeneration.

Notes: Makes this more efficient as a self heal. Even if your pet is snared, or miss-hexed to all hell.

Scavenger Strike: Pet Attack. Your animal companion attempts a Scavenger Strike that deals +10..22..25 damage. If the attack strikes a foe who is suffering a condition, that foe takes an additional +1..12..15 damage, and at rank 8 WS both you and your animal companion are healed for the total damage of this attack.

Ok this is somewhat insane and there are balance issues, but it makes 'pure' Beastmaster’s very viable I think (even perhaps a little too viable). It'll never happen so nobody knows! ^_^

frojack · Jun 26, 2007, 09:22 PM // 21:22

Well after doing some more tests, with a 'pure' BM, I still feel they are just about ok. The only thing I'd really like to see now is certain 'small' things fixed.

The initial pause before the pet begins to attack has no real purpose but to retard pet damage. I can't see a need for it. Would be very happy if this went away.

More importantly I say increase pet attack rates up to 1.33 per second in line with swords, axes and spears. A ranger just taking a pet along to look like tarzan won't see much benefit from this, but a pure Bm with Pet attack skills and more importantly 16 Beast mastery will be significantly buffed. A 2+ attack rate is really too slow.

shirosae · Jun 26, 2007, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

Well after doing some more tests, with a 'pure' BM, I still feel they are just about ok. The only thing I'd really like to see now is certain 'small' things fixed.

Replying to your previous post first:

Ferocious, yeah i assumed you meant that. You still lose the elite though (and therefore HaO), but your point stands. I need to play with Melandru's more often really.

I really like the idea of tying Wilderness into Beastmaster skills. Somewhat recently i tinkered with 16 BM, 9E, 11 Marks with RtW and suchlike, and came across the whole bow damage sucks thing. Being able to spend those points in something that actually gave me a bonus other than a break point here or there would be brilliant. So we run 16BM, 9-11E, 9-11WS. I really like that.

Doesn't hinder people using x/R, does limit people who want the advantage to pure builds. <3 surgical buffs.

I was about to type <3 Feral, Melandru's and Pounce, but i really like all of these options you've suggested.

I've been tinkering with a Thumper recently :P Knocking stuff down over and over is actually really quite addictive, and the deep wound is too good to pass up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

The initial pause before the pet begins to attack has no real purpose but to retard pet damage. I can't see a need for it. Would be very happy if this went away.

More importantly I say increase pet attack rates up to 1.33 per second in line with swords, axes and spears. A ranger just taking a pet along to look like tarzan won't see much benefit from this, but a pure Bm with Pet attack skills and more importantly 16 Beast mastery will be significantly buffed. A 2+ attack rate is really too slow.

Actually you're quite right. I'd noticed and cursed that delay, but hadn't even considered it in this debate. It might be a legacy thing from when Pets attacked your target? Wouldn't be necessary now of course.

Increase to pet attack speed would suddenly solve the problems i was having with HaO, in that i'd be able to actually rotate more than 3 pet attacks. I would settle for that quite happily. This would also make conditional pet attacks like Beastial Mauling much more usable.

Moa Bird Cultist · Jun 26, 2007, 10:54 PM // 22:54

Back to the original post, merging Comfort and Charm isn't going to happen because it would mean gg forever for hero battles, which, contrary to the general 'lol beastmasters sux' opinions are dominated by R/P beastmaster spear chuckers. Merging these two skills would mean they'd all start bringing Enraged Lunge as their elite instead of heal as one, resulting in ArenaNet having to completely nerf beastmastery, hurting everyone in the process. That is why it's a bad idea.

Razz Thom · Jun 26, 2007, 11:34 PM // 23:34

imagine for a moment............................................ ................................
if they merged these 2 skills where would it end?

charm animal on skill bar=lvl 20 ally to fight for you.
comfort animal=rez and heal said ally

animate flesh golem on skill bar=animate high lvl ally to fight for you.
blood of the master=heal said ally

if they do it for rangers then mm's would have a fit until it was done for them.
picture that for a minute, hmmmmmmmmmmm.

pretty ugly no?

glountz · Jun 27, 2007, 09:30 AM // 09:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moa Bird Cultist

contrary to the general 'lol pure beastmasters sux' opinions .

Fixed for you.

Spear chucklers draw their main strenght from spear attack abuse through expertise.

Moa Bird Cultist · Jun 28, 2007, 09:37 AM // 09:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Fixed for you.

Spear chuckers draw their main strength from spear attack abuse through expertise.

So... If pets are so insignificant in Hero Battles, why does everyone run them then, eh? And why make the distinction between spear chuckers and pure beastmasters? Theyre both out to achieve the same effect. You can argue about pets playing a secondary role in builds like spear chucker or thumper till you're blue in the face, but that doesn't change the fact that they do play a significant role and that merging charm and comfort is on the same level of narrow-sightedness as moving Mystic Regeneration into mysticism. It will unbalance the game and remove all the challenge from constructing a beastmaster build. I'd much rather beast mastery stays niche than become totally overpowered and subject to even more complaining than it is now.

Plague · Jun 28, 2007, 09:07 PM // 21:07

People have been asking for this for over a year now.

My complaint isn't that comfort and charm need to be combined. Mine is that Charm is useless after its first use, and is necessary just to USE Beast Mastery. It's like making Favorable Winds necessary to use a bow. It's ridiculous. Pets are so skillbar-heavy to be very useful, I don't see their inclusion necessitating a useless skill slot!

I don't think Charm and Comfort should be combined, but I do think that Charm should resurrect your pet.

Example:
(I don't remember the original skill description, so work with me.)

Charm Animal:
Charm target animal. If successful, target animal becomes your pet and will travel with and fight for you outside of any town or outpost. If you have an existing pet that is dead, your pet is resurrected with 1 point of health.

This would make Charm more sane for use in PvE especially, but would not obsolete Comfort. It also would not obsolete skills like Heal as One, especially in PvP.

Ranmaru Mori · Jul 01, 2007, 05:00 AM // 05:00

/signed Heh Ill go for it. One less skill on the bar makes things easier :P

Bazompora · Jul 01, 2007, 08:53 AM // 08:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plague

Charm is useless after its first use

No; after its first use, Charm Animal becomes a passive skill that auto-summons a companion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plague

Charm
is necessary just to USE Beast Mastery.

Again, no; the following Beast Mastery skills allready necessit no companion to be usefull: Bestial Fury, Edge of Extinction, Energizing Wind, Fertile Season, Heket's Rampage, Lacerate, Predatory Season, Primal Echoes, Symbiosis, Tiger's Fury, Toxicity & Viper's Nest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plague

It's like making Favorable Winds necessary to use a bow.

If that's how you see it, why not start complaing about Dagger Attack Chains? Y'know, those Dual Attack skills require an Off-Hand Attack skill, which on its turn requires a Lead Attack skill. Oh, and for the Necromancer, Dark Bond requires me to equip a minion summoning skill, so let's just drop that req too, eh? And what about ...
Your crusade against combo skills is just beginning!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plague

I do think that Charm should resurrect your pet.

I think Life Transfer's duration should go on till your target is dead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plague

This would make Charm more sane for use in PvE especially

Having minions heal themselves would make 'em more "sane" too, especially in PvE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plague

This
would not obsolete Comfort. It also would not obsolete skills like Heal as One, especially in PvP.

It would obsolete Revive Animal and imbalance PvE aswell as PvP (read up in previous posts in this thread).

Arghore · Jun 26, 2009, 08:06 PM // 20:06

/signed

I have been struggling with this also, if not combined with a rez then perhaps the skill can be combined with a petheal instead.

Instead of fighting your pet to capture it, it could be set so you have to heal an animal you want to capture for a certain amount of hp in a certain amount of time (realy charming it and not instant click and capture, but keep clicking to capture...)

Charm Animal
5e, 1/2s, 1sec
Heal your pet for 20-90hp, (small heal)
if you heal an Animal for 500-750HP in the next 15 seconds this animal becomes your pet and travels with you aslong as you have this skill equiped.

Comfort Animal
Can stay as it is and becomes a large pet heal and a rez..

This means pets can become more used in PvP, and kept alive aslong as they dont take tomuch damage, still if it dies you should have brought Comfort Animal to rez it (makes sence to me)

1337 H4X · Jun 27, 2009, 02:11 AM // 02:11

gg 2 year thread res.

Ideas nice

Arghore · Jun 27, 2009, 02:21 AM // 02:21

hmm perhaps to make it more intuitive pets can be a different colour interface (say purple), if you attack it becomes red, then when it reaches a hp limit it turns green, from this moment you can start healing or you can slay them..

pumpkin pie · Jun 27, 2009, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skuld

What about the new Heal as One? Resurrects now

Heal as one, heal the player. Comfort animal should work like heal as one, since its not an elite, it should heal and rez your pet companion only and not the player.

Since the game doesn't actually lets you keep the animal companion, I assume they are left in the wild, once you charmed an animal, logically they would come whenever you are in the wild.

With the introduction of Zaishen Menagerie, if you desire to bring a pet other then the one that can be found locally, you are require to bring charm animal. Its the players call if they want to have 2 skills slot filled or 1.

However when you have the Zaishen Menagerie filled/have charmed all type of charmable pets, pets of that particular locality will come to your ranger even if you do not have Charm Animal skill equipped. but only one pet will come, randomly.

^^ something for Arena Net to think about.

PS: Revive animals on Heroes is broken

/signed. I like beastmaster.

Arkantos · Jun 27, 2009, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by glountz

Fixed for you.

Spear chucklers draw their main strenght from spear attack abuse through expertise.

In HB the main power comes from rangers having high armor and having pets that have 104 armor (if elder) and deal a significant amount of pressure through unblockable attacks, 33% IAS and extra damage. Spears are the ideal weapon for the heroes because it's ranged and allows the use of a shield. It has nothing to do with spear attacks and expertise, most of the heroes only run barbed spear (which is adrenaline).

Anyways, don't know if I've posted in this thread but /notsigned, unless they make it PvE only. PvP doesn't need to have charm/comfort merged.